The Hartlib Papers

Title:Copy Extract In Hand ?, John Dury To ?
Ref:1/19/1A-4B: 3B-4B BLANK

              An Extract of a letter, being a Memoriall
               from Mr Iohn Durie for Sir Iohn
              Thorougood <H: concerning the Independents>
[left margin: /] Concerning the Independants if you desire to see my thoughts, you shall find them in the hands of Mr Hartlib in Dukes place neare Algate to whom you may be pleased reciprocally to communicate this which here I will tell you of them; namely that I iudge them <H: men> whose <H: Men> myndes are raised to the aymes of spirituall perfection. and this they knowe of themselues for the most part but Iudge others to come short of this, they are as I suppose orthodoxe, and therefore to be accounted Brethren in the fayth. their practise in the priuate wayes of Godlynes <H: and> in the publick profession of Religion, if it can be made free from singularitie and Niceties, & comparatiue Iudging of others censoriously will be harmeless. Therefore I would haue our Diuines to deale in all Gentleness with them, and not to fall to Scholasticall disputations about particular matters with them, for such disputes become endlesse Labyrinths[H alters] of the mynd. But I would desire the Wisdome of the State to looke to them and their Principles to discerne how farre their waye doth tend to good order and vnitie; and <H: not> to suffer all matters to be suspended by them any longer from a settlement in a Presbyteriall waye which will fit them to Correspond with Forraine Protestants, and least they should complayne that they haue not beene sufficiently heard or fairely dealt, withall; I thinke a conference should be appointed[altered] of some to treate with them, and the manner might bee this to proceed towards it.
First they should be Commanded by the State breifely to declare the true and full frame of that Church gouernement which they would bee obliged to obserue in all poynts; and this declaration should be sett downe distinctly in Articles.
If they should say that they must haue tyme to doe this, then [catchword: the]

the State should giue them a certayne tyme, and in the meane tyme commaund all priuate men to abstayne from gathering of Churches and cause the Presbyteriall orders for the right calling of Ministers and framing of Classes, to be sett vp, in those places where ministers are to bee brought in, or where they that are in place, are willing to receiue them.
Then when the Independant forme of Gouernement shall bee presented to the state to bee considered, they should depute some of the Presbyterians to conferre with them about the same. Where the Presbyterians should not intend a dispute to contradict any thing which they shall haue declared; but onely an amiable inquiry of that which they shall finde Contrary to the Rules of true spirituall, or sound naturall gouernement and the enquirie should be by raysing doubts, which the independants should be obliged to resolue: so all should passe by way of questions and answeres, and some scribes should be appointed to write vp all the proposalls on both sides.
When by this meanes of amiable Conference the one side should haue proposed all the doubts which it could raise vpon their Articles[H capitalises], and the other shewed the way howe those doubts should be resolued and how the difficulties should be taken away; then both sides would vnderstand fully each others meaning and the whole difference of their wayes; which being done the Presbyterians should bee commaunded vpon this discouery, to make a full declaration by way of Articles[H capitalises] in like manner of that which they doe yeild or not yeild vnto; in the things debated off with the independants with their reasons why they cannot yeild or [catchword: doe]

yeild therevnto. This Declaration the State should take into Consideration; but depute some to Iudge of both the declarations and of the conference to see whether or noe a medium might not be found to reconcile both parties in that wherein they should differ; here then first the full agreement of the parties should be set downe by articles, & offered to the State to be ratified. then the disagreement of their wayes should also be set downe & presented to the State in like manner: and thirdly the [H: overtures] for a reconcilement vnto euery point of the disagreement should bee also drawne vp & presented to the State to see what should be determined therein; and whatsoeuer the State should determine in the outward manner of the proceeding, that should be ratified by its authoritie, but if any case should bee incident which doth not concerne the outward manner of proceeding, but toucheth the inward Gouernement of the spirit wherein a difference of Iudgment should bee found betwixt the parties; that case should be sett a part to be further consulted & conferred vpon in due tyme; and the overtures for a reconcilement in such a case are not to be determined by the State but should be proposed to both parties to vnderstand their meanings about the same, and if they shoud still disagree, then the case might ber sent ouer to forraine Diuines desiring them to declare their Iudgment thereof, and to shew the way of reconcileing the difference, which they shall thinke most expedient, in the meane tyme all rash disputes and [catchword: animosities]

animosities, and passionate writings, and censures of each others wayes and complaints and murmurings concerning particular wrongs and iniuries should be prohibited in publick and eueryone earnestly intreated and charged to beare with his brother till a full resolution of doubt and settlement of matters to be reformed be found out and such as should fly out & shew themselues contentious should be brought to the Iudicature of the Senate to whom the case should belong. much more might be said of the wayes of Reconciling the Independants and Presbyterialls; for nothing but a reconcilement ought to be intended, I cannot thinke that a toleration is allowable though neuer so much and cautiously limited, therefore I would neuer haue the State to thinke of it or to make any act of toleration, but if they cannot but giue a toleration to avoid greater inconveniences then let them doe it actually without any declaration for the future, & let the ground of the Actuall toleration be a contynued treatie of agreement betwixt the parties; of which contynued way of treating in due tyme more may be said. for the present I will not trouble you further with a wearisome discourse which I haue in hast thus put to paper to giue your good and godly inclynation some obiect of worke and good Communicacion with others that labour to heale breaches: Now the Lord who is able to doe aboue all that wee can thinke or craue, heale all the Infirmities of those, that [catchword: loue]

loue him and haue mercie vpon his scattered sheep in England and send them pastors according to his owne heart./ [left margin: /] to his grace I comend you in your wayes beseeching him to protect you and prosper you in all your vndertakings to his glorie and to this effect you shall haue the hearty prayers of
                        Your faythfull freind &
                            Seruant in Christ.